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Poster: dr. flashback Date: Oct 15, 2007 6:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Hello lobster, wolf and flow. Yeah, I'm right there with all you guys. I still boycott, initially because of the SBD pull, but as wolf says, it quickly became more than that.
Just as I would (and have done) boycott ANY corporation who does not respect its customers.
However, endless bitching about the SBD's being gone is kinda pointless - as others have said,"you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you get what you need."
There are other ways to get SBD's. I myself have all the SBD backed up now from 1968 thru 1977. So can I complain?? Still, I do hope someone will put up a private server with all the 80's SBD's. MayoStudent had it going for a while. and I think eventually people will find ways to do that again.
There are still 2 points that I would love to discuss/debate with lobster, dire, highflow, etc. over some good cold IPA's. LOL

1. I don't think Bobby or more to the point, the whole GDP organization - really "gets it". The fact that now I would estimate at least a few thousand (maybe 10's of thousands) of people have MOST of the vault completely backed up and digitalized. I'm talking about every SBD, or close to it. Just the traffic on etree and other torrents since say, 2000-2001 should give you a good idea of the numbers. And if only half of those people copied their collections with others, and then THOSE people traded......etc.
So - we have a new cultural phenomenon. Tens of thousands of people with "virtually" every live performance of a group over 30 years. Not even Phish fans can claim that, not yet anyway.
This phenomenon, even though centered around Dead collectors, will eventually I believe (if it hasn't already) radiate out to the entire rock/jam band music industry, forever changing the way we buy and collect and listen to music. Such as -
A. our tastes in music getting more diverse, experienced and well, "picky" about what we listen to.

B. less inclined to buy new product unless it's something really special. However, at the same time - MORE inclined to buy say, a JGB release, or a Phil release or a rare Dead show/box set BECAUSE we have had more exposure to our GD collection.

C. a change in the market of Grateful Dead fans, but also in the music market in general - from being "occasional music buyers" to "music collectors" With downloading, trading and torrenting SO easy to do, even by default.
Take "Sam". In 1999, Sam had maybe 10 commercial GDead CD's, along with say, a few dozen Dead tapes he'd traded. Then Sam gets the internet and finds some FTP sites with GD shows in SBD. "well", Sam thinks, "it would be cool to have 2-3 good shows from my favorite years."
But soon he finds that hundreds of shows are available. And those he downloaded sound really great. So, "because it's there", Sam becomes a collector, not only of the GD, but also lots of other Jam bands he finds to DL.
My point being that being a collector offers much more in terms of choice, variety, musical education, technical experience (converting SHN's, etc.) contact with others, new friends, sense of community, and so on - than simply being a "music buyer" at Best Buy once a week. People that didn't intend to be collectors, soon discover how rewarding and fun it is. Of course it's not just "getting music for free". It's much more than that and most of the people on the GD Forum know it's more than that.

The internet is quickly creating a VAST population of collectors, people who are much more educated and serious about their music than the past 50 years of music consumers have ever been. THIS is what GDP and the music business still doesn't grasp. "We" of the internet culture are already years ahead of them.

2. My second point is about the copyright issue. I think Jerry's famous quote about letting people have it for free can be taken out of context, and certainly don't think that should stand alone as the basis for our side of the argument. That's silly of course.
But - let's face it folks, if some group played a show in 1971 (Allmans, Pink Floyd, GD, whomever) they have had 36 years to cash in on that show. 36 years. But they didn't did they? And now they want to gripe about people DL'ing a show that they refused to make available all these years?

It's embarrassing - some millionaire band with 30 some years worth of product (and current new product) being stingy and griping about not making enough money off of a 1971 show. We, the fans have valued, cared, listened to and remastered and turned new fans on to this show for years. Why didn't the band care so much about this show then?

Really now, someone mentioned Public Domain. Yeah. I think any live show 30 years old or older - should be public domain AS FAR AS DL'ing and sharing goes. If they want to remaster and release it, fine too. Shmooze us with a nice product and we'll buy it. But any show this old or older should be considered part of our musical cultural heritage, which it is!!
I'm not talking about "rights". Sure, legally the artist has rights to protect their music, especially newer artists or music/concerts done in the last 10 years or so.
But I like libraries, used to work in one. And so I speak as a librarian - someone not so concerned with rights and who gets how much money - but as someone who values history and culture and musical heritage. Most of the stuff on Wolfgang's Vault should be Public Domain, period. Leave the guy alone.
Consider this - whom contributes more to the overall musical culture and community, someone who buys $500 worth of commercial CD's per year??
Or - someone who shares/trades 500 CD's worth of music with friends and internet DLoaders, most of whom turn around and share the music with others?

Yes, the artist wants to make money. Duh!! But even more important - the real artist mostly wants his/her music to be HEARD and appreciated. I should think Santana or the Allmans or Neil Young would be THRILLED that older fans or especially young fans would love listening to their old unreleased 1971 show. Even if they DL it for free. Because I speak for most of us here, we're not selling this old music on Ebay. We LOVE listening and sharing this music. That's what it's about.
By the year 2010 and beyond, unless the net gets shut down, there will be countless thousands of people in the USA, not to mention the world, who will have VAST collections of music and movies from the last 50-60 years worth of our American culture, both bought and DL'ed. Want all of Chaplin's films, the Honeymooners episodes or the complete Star Trek series? You've got them. Jeeez - they're even putting out entire collections of "Our Gang" now on DVD, and that was done in the 1930's!!!
We are fast becoming a nation of "cultural librarians" and I don't think the corporate media guys have even begun to grasp the "big picture" that we here are seeing. It's changing the way we buy, listen to and appreciate the arts - and people better start realizing it. For me it's very exciting, how about you?

Now, Rhino - about those GD summer of 1970 shows you have in the vault, as well as many others that don't ever circulate. Don't you feel ashamed letting it rot away, lost forever?
No one got to buy it, no one got to hear it. Who wins here??

going back to the cave, cheers,
Dr. Flashback :-)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 15, 2007 10:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

right to the point good dr.

couldnt have said it better myself (and obviously i didnt)

:)

hope you are well man

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Poster: high flow Date: Oct 15, 2007 11:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Hey Dr!

I am Sam.
Sam I am.
I do so like a Grateful Jam.

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Poster: dr. flashback Date: Oct 16, 2007 12:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

But what I want to know is, do you like green buds and ham, Sam I am??
Listening to 10/20/90 right now with the afore mentioned, sans the ham!! Couldn't be better. Nice to see your moniker high flow. Keep the jams cranked.
cheers,
Dr. Flashback
Did you know BTW that Dr. Seuss also drew all the illustrations for his books?? Some guy heh?

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Oct 17, 2007 11:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

I'm not buying anything, but I wouldn't call it so much a boycott as just the fact that I already have more than I need so why spend money on merely better sounding copies of stuff I have??

Like many others I had/have very negative feelings about the foolish, amateurish way everything was handled on their end and was let down to realize that after all the years maybe all we were was customers to them after all, not fellow travelers.

Even the recent decision to stop MP3 downloads on the Dead Net tapers section seems like PR suicide. They actually were spreading some good will for a while there but now are just spreading a familiar stench.

The boards becoming unavailable here was a blessing in disguise as like others I found other sites and friends through whom I got far more than was even on offer at LMA, both GD and JGB.

I do wonder what Rhino et all are thinking though when the most popular new sources on the torrent sites may generate 500-1000 DL when its FOR FREE, how many folks does Rhino think are actually going to pay for what they release ???

I would consider pulling out my wallet for any unheard of early 70's boards or good videos but anything else I doubt it.

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Poster: Alligator71 Date: Nov 16, 2007 5:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

hi dr flashback,
just to mention how happy i feel to read your message and see that some people have it right...
here in Europe, we are more or less the forgotten ones of the GD world and of course collecting, excahnging and so on has been quite a challenge and an adventure. Anyway, it feels good to read clear and valuable opinions and point of views regarding the whole business evolution. Another comment, i have read a lot of your comments regarding concerts on archive, so i believe we quite fancy a lot of the same concerts and period. All the best to you Mr flashback!!

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Oct 17, 2007 11:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

I'm not buying anything, but I wouldn't call it so much a boycott as just the fact that I already have more than I need so why spend money on merely better sounding copies of stuff I have??

Like many others I had/have very negative feelings about the foolish, amateurish way everything was handled on their end and was let down to realize that after all the years maybe all we were was customers to them after all, not fellow travelers.

Even the recent decision to stop MP3 downloads on the Dead Net tapers section seems like PR suicide. They actually were spreading some good will for a while there but now are just spreading a familiar stench.

The boards becoming unavailable here was a blessing in disguise as like others I found other sites and friends through whom I got far more than was even on offer at LMA, both GD and JGB.

I do wonder what Rhino et all are thinking though when the most popular new sources on the torrent sites may generate 500-1000 DL when its FOR FREE, how many folks does Rhino think are actually going to pay for what they release ???

I would consider pulling out my wallet for any unheard of early 70's boards or good videos but anything else I doubt it.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 16, 2007 9:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

I agree with what you said about them not getting it. They pretty much wasted their opportunity to cash in imo.

BUT I disagree with your opinion of public domain. I don't care what the law or the norm is. To me it boils down to this - let's say you are a carpenter and you build a real nice porch seat. You never sit in it or use it at all as far as I can tell. Everyday I walk past your house and admire it. 30 years go by and I decide that since you aren't sharing it and you never use it I'm just going to take it. I'm not going to sell it, I'm just going to have it and share it with my friends. SAME exact thing.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 17, 2007 10:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Yes true... on the other hand you can use this same analogy like this in regards to the boards issue: Say your neighbor has a really nice chair on his porch and after admiring it for a while you go over and ask him if you can copy that fine[09-27-72] chair so you can enjoy it too and the neighbor says sure go ahead. So you do and then all your friends come over and love the fine [09-27-72] chair you just copied from your neighbor with his consent. So they decide to make copies of the fine [09-27-72] chair so they to can enjoy its pleasures too. But then the original neighbor with the original chair decides that he made a big mistake buy letting you copy his chair for free instead of starting a [09-27-72] chair factory and demands that you stop letting people copy that wonderful [09-27-72] chair. So you consent to your neighbor but the cat is already out of the bag and all your friends friends are copying the [09-27-72] chair for them selves so your only choice really is to either create a new different chair or make a new zirconium encrusted [09-27-72] chair that everyone just has to have. Cheers

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 17, 2007 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

nope, doesn't compare because no one has yet said that people can't trade what they already have.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 17, 2007 12:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Nope only the one neighbor which is the LMA. but by then it's a moot point.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 17, 2007 12:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

but the LMA isn't just TWO people trading, it's a place where these are stored. It's not the same.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 17, 2007 8:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

I see your point after some sleep but to make things clearer and continuing with the analogy your saying that while it's not ethical for neighbors to get together and share their collection of chairs in an organized way it may be ok to do it on a peer to peer basis, correct?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2007 8:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Yeah, pretty much. I mean the whole Torrent thing is going to become a controversy at some point possibly too but no matter what happens there will allways be good old fashioned trading through the good ole US postal service

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 18, 2007 10:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

yea I agree and that's why this whole clampdown on the boards is kinda silly since it's already out there anyways.
Off subject here is anyone else having a hard time connecting to the board right now? Myself all I get from it is responses to past posts. The rest of the board has remained the same for 2 days now. I can't even see responded posts that I just made. Strange.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2007 11:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

yes! I made this long winded post yesterday and it NEVER showed up. There hasn't been a new post from anyone in two days

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2007 1:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Hey JOTS! Good to "see" you if only in the current half assed way...

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2007 1:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

You too Tell. Have you heard what's going on?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2007 1:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Nope...started out with just SDH, JGylnn and now we are up to about 20 forumites poking here and there, having small conversations with one person at a time. Sorta strange, but kinda nice too...

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 18, 2007 11:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Well johnny it seems we are stuck with each other since the board seems to be closed and honestly I can't think of a better situation to be stuck in. Listening to 02-26-90 right now again and being blown away once more. What are you listening too?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Oct 18, 2007 11:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

oh YEAH! That was a sweet show wasn't it? " are you ready for star time!"I like the next night ( Mardis Gras ) better. I assume you were at this run too no? How cool it is that we saw so many shows together. And also that you agree on how excellent the band was then. I knew it couldn't be just me.

Well, actually I'm not listening to anything at the moment. Unfortunatly I haven't had time today. On the drive in I listened to Harding Theatre 11-7-71. Really digging how the band was sounding then, especially Phil

Hey, was 2-26 the show where when the band took the stage Bob tripped on a cord and fell on his ass? And everyone of course laughed, including Bob ( good sport )

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 18, 2007 12:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Yea I was at all these shows and yea the next night is perfection in my book. The thing I like most about this show is the exploration factor that is in full force throughout. Was on the floor and I have a vivid memory of myself and everyone around me being handed a real rose during scarlet fire sometime I think. The atmosphere and crowd were so beautiful at all these {including the Warfield jgb} Winter San Fran Bay shows. Nothing actually came close to the "pagentry" at these shows afterwards in my opinion. Tripping Bob is a vague memory at this time too but honestly can't recall if it was this show

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 18, 2007 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Ok Johnny getting to be almost morning over here in Asia now so going to bed. Talk to you you tomorrow and hopefully the board will be up again by then. Cheers

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 18, 2007 12:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Yea I was at all these shows and yea the next night is perfection in my book. The thing I like most about this show is the exploration factor that is in full force throughout. Was on the floor and I have a vivid memory of myself and everyone around me being handed a real rose during scarlet fire sometime I think. The atmosphere and crowd were so beautiful at all these {including the Warfield jgb} Winter San Fran Bay shows. Nothing actually came close to the "pagentry" at these shows afterwards in my opinion.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Oct 18, 2007 1:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Baron (har): go to the forum and click on the "RSS" and you will see all recent posts...only get to see one on one, but some of us are poking about.

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 18, 2007 1:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

Thanks Will, I'll do that in the morning here. This is actually kinda fun, like when the power goes out and all you got is a candle to see. Cheers

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Poster: barongsong Date: Oct 17, 2007 12:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

No only the one neighbor which is the LMA.

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Oct 17, 2007 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

I'm not buying anything, but I wouldn't call it so much a boycott as just the fact that I already have more than I need so why spend money on merely better sounding copies of stuff I have??

Like many others I had/have very negative feelings about the foolish, amateurish way everything was handled on their end and was let down to realize that after all the years maybe all we were was customers to them after all, not fellow travelers.

Even the recent decision to stop MP3 downloads on the Dead Net tapers section seems like PR suicide. They actually were spreading some good will for a while there but now are just spreading a familiar stench.

The boards becoming unavailable here was a blessing in disguise as like others I found other sites and friends through whom I got far more than was even on offer at LMA, both GD and JGB.

I do wonder what Rhino et all are thinking though when the most popular new sources on the torrent sites may generate 500-1000 DL when its FOR FREE, how many folks does Rhino think are actually going to pay for what they release ???

I would consider pulling out my wallet for any unheard of early 70's boards or good videos but anything else I doubt it.

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Oct 18, 2007 1:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

I haven't been buying anything but that is probably more an matter of having all I really need already and commercial releases usually being nothing more than a cleaned up copy of a show already in circulation.

Like others I was and probably still am annoyed and let down by the way the whole matter was handled the boards being made unavailable for download here has been a huge blessing in disguise. I've made new friends, discovered new (better?) sites after I stopped spending so much time here. I also have aquired far more music than was ever on offer here, including GD never kosher at LMA and JGB to boot.

Realizing that perhaps Heads are seen as nothing but potential dollar signs by some in the 'family' was sad and the bands ability to avoid any good will (ie: squashing the MP3 downloads at GD net) is stupifying.

Seeing as the most popular torrents of new GD sources on the web only attract 1000-1500 takers (and most around 500 range) when it is FOR FREE, I don't know where Rhino thinks they will ever reap huge benefits from what they are squatting on. Perhaps the band played Rhino for a dupe when they unloaded the vault.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Oct 15, 2007 10:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: hot button issue

right to the point good dr.

couldnt have said it better myself (and obviously i didnt)

:)

hope you are well man